Curse

Glints Bane · Apr 22, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I totally agree with what blackbird71 stated on page 11 of this very thread. Blackbird71 stated everything I wished to express.

Now I would like to apoligize to Anet. When they updated the loot scaling I predicted what would happen with in game prices...and they came true with ecto hitting 11k friday morning, so I came here to guru because Gaile said in game to "post concernes on forums" so I did so. I stated in my frustration that I would leave the game...this was the first time Anet had driven me to even think about doing so. I had been frustrated with many of their recent game changes but nothing came close to this update. I was going to give Anet one month to change(thinking full well that they weren't because of the way they have acted on previous updates) but in less then 24 hours they updated the game. So I wish apoligize not for what I said but for the fact that I thought you(Anet) were just not going to listen to your costumers and would think that everything you choose to do is the best idea since air. So I am sorry, you proved that you do listen(at least to some extent) to the guildwars community on fan forums.

Nomen Mendax · Apr 22, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I swear, some people just don't get it.

...

In Gaile's last post in this thread I was surprised, it sounded contrived in a way to make people defend ANet's ideas not due to the logic behind it (there isn't any) but because evil me and evil Kane hurt poor Gaile's feelings. That's PR spin at its best, fact deflection +1!

There STILL has been no answer in regards to some of they very fine ideas presented in this thread, from auction/trade windows to stabilizing armor pricing. Its called putting up a smokescreen, and what I find truly amsuing is that the people who don't farm really don't understand that farmers only affected them in a positive way by lowering prices, its BOTTERS flooding the economy with gold and making everything worse.

Great, punish the positive, reinforce the negative. My only real wish is that the people on this forum would think critically about the issue and make an informed decision, rather than just blindly supporting yet another supposed "bot nerf" but which only hurts the farmers, the economy, and to a large extent the entire playerbase.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread (and I'm really glad that you are saying it) but it is the weekend ...

adderworks · Apr 22, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

My guild is a tiny guild, but the large portion of 46 players in it are actively seeking a new game as a direct response to the update. The reasons range from the farming nerf to the dislike of the AI changes.

What does that mean about the update? Hmm, I am not sure, but it is hard to go over the official line and smile about losing a lot of people just to nerf bot farmers. Mmmmmmaybe, the solution is to not make everyone leave? Instead, modern economy models show market places function as financial vents for "extra" real life gold. Why not the "stock market" aka auction house to manage gold and in-game items? It works for the real world, every other online game, and literary world.

Kaleban · Apr 22, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I hope you don't actually believe that. Solo farmers got 8x the drops because they killed 8x the monsters.

It's not. It's equally valid, and therefore deserves (relatively) equal rewards.

huh, interesting logic there.

Do 8x work, get 1x reward. GG Lenin.

To be honest, the nerf doesn't affect me so much personally because I usually farmed greens and such anyways, I rarely if ever did things like vermin and kirin farming.

What I am against is the rationale used to defend the nerf (socialism) and the fact that those hardest hit will be the players, while making bots' services more valued.

You people can claim we're all a bunch of whiners as much as you want, but when ectos and other rare items continue to rise in price, while the supply of gold drops off, resulting in a double hit to the economy, you can remember this thread.

And to those who say gold farming is all great and good now. I see the average merch price of golds is around 5-6 times a max white. So if you were to get a gold drop 1 out of 6 monsters instead of a white drop 6 out of 6 monsters, is there a change? No. [edit] remember, the gold drop rate is only altered in Hard Mode, not some place that is forgiving to the casual, NOT spend 10 hours a day playing gaming crowd.

This is cosmetic masking at best. Agree with me or not, makes no difference to me, I don't take offense from anonymous forums. All I'm trying to do is posit alternative solutions to a problem that imho ANet keeps bungling over and over again with each successive nerf/update.

blackbird71 · Apr 22, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I have tried to respond to several points made by many posters with opinions different from my own. In quoting a few individuals, I am not trying to single anyone out, but rather I have used the words of those who seemed to have the most understandable and rational explanations of their views. To those I quoted, thanks for being reasonable and civil, let's all try to keep it that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I gotta say, as much as I dislike farming, blackbird71 made some excellent points in this post.

It seems that a lot of the criticism of this update stems from the belief that farming is the only way to make money. While I don't hold that particular opinion, maybe ArenaNet should look into that issue and consider giving casual players more opportunities to earn money in other ways than farming.

Thanks for the support. Like you, I also dislike farming. Farming or any type of a grind is not how I want to spend my free time. However, after over a year and a half of avoiding it, playing through with mediocre equipment and standard armor, then with the advent of heroes, I came to accept that it was the nature of the beast. High end, fixed price, costly items set the terms for the market, and simple questing did not yield enough to get them, so I had to turn to farming. I don't farm constantly, that would defeat the purpose, but I farm occasionally and I gradually build towards goals of items I wish to purchase. I still do not have rare skinned items or 15k armor, etc, I just farm for better equipment. I do not find farming enjoyable, but having better equipment with better stats has made the game more fun, so I farm not because farming itself is fun, but because with reasonable investment of time, it could improve the rest of my game.

Also, it seems that the thread I linked to with my economic analysis has been removed. To add a little more to my summary, let me say that the change has effectively implemented an exchange rate in which every 1 new gold which appears in game has approximately eight times the rarity and therefore eight tiems the value of 1 old gold in existence before the update (1 new gold = 8 old gold). The problem is that this exchange rate is then applied to all old gold in existence in characters' inventories or players' storage, effectively multiplying the value of such gold by a factor of 8. This means that those who had large amounts of gold to begin with now have even more, and there is enough of this gold in circulation to keep high priced items at or near their previous values. At the same time, new gold is harder to come by, and therefore those who need new gold and do not have old gold hoarded are still in a difficult position so far as earning enough gold to purchase high priced items. Eventually, the prices for market items should adjust to the changes and even out, but not until most of the hoarded old gold has been spent and recirculated. How long this will take is anybody's guess, but the time becomes an issue when you consider that the advent of GW2 has placed a limit to the lifetime of the GW economy. Meanwhile, as the market items adjust, and prices drop to reflect less gold in the open market, the relative value of fixed cost items (armor, kits, etc.) will increase, making them even harder to obtain for the casual player. I fail to see how this effect on the economy is good for anyone except the hardcore "expert" farmers who already have a great deal of wealth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

So how is it that repetitive, casual farming considered less grinding than exploring an area with a party? That is truely a misnomer if I ever did see one. You don't have to clear the whole thing, heck, consider actually questing, you get rewards for that, too. Just about everything you do in GW gives you rewards, the only real complaint is that the rewards aren't high enough, and thus causes people to want to farm.

It is less grinding because when exploring an area with a party, it takes more time and earns 1/8th of the reward. Both can be called grinding, but if done right, you effectively spend less time doing it solo. But yes, higher quest rewards would definetly remove the need to farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I feel that the average Joe player should be in the spotlight, with extra rewards for team play. Do you honestly think that copy-pasting a build and mindlessly smacking the keyboard for hours on end gives you every right to have more money than "average Joe" non-farmer who just logs in to have fun with his buddies, explore and quest around, etc for the same amount of time? Why should anyone have to be subjected to mindless grind just to "keep up with the Jones's"?

(boldface added for emphasis)

I agree, but that question needs to be directed towards Anet, not the playerbase. They set the prices for the fixed high-end items, and the rarity of valuable drops, they have set the terms for the economy. As the players we just try to find ways to cope with it as best we can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

By not eliminating farming, they allow players to choose what they want to do with their time - fantastic. By eliminating the need for farming just to get some of the nicer things (including more necessities like skills), they give everyone more time to do what they want - incredible!

The fallacy here is believing that Anet has eliminated the need for farming. On the contrary, the need to farm to afford high-end items placed in game by Anet is alive and well, they have just hobbled the means of doing it, and made it even more of a pain to accomplish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

An old argument farmers used to use to excuse what they do is boredom. There simply wasn't anything left for them to do but grind for more crap. Enter Hard Mode. The answer to every farmers wish except that seemingly innate need to farm. That part always confuddles me.

Boredom? Others may have used this argument, but it's not one I agree with nor have I seen much of. Actually I find farming to be the pinnacle of drudgery in this or any game, but as stated before, thanks to the system established by Anet, I've found it to be a necessary evil, and this update does nothing to change that. At least before the update, casual players could spend a minimal amount of time farming to meet their needs and wants, now that time has been increased. What's the point in that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

No, you are completely missing my point. This is a game. A game is (and should be) designed to be fun, not tedious, nor should it be considered work. Again, if farming is what you consider fun, guess what, you can still farm, thus your fun isn't "nerfed" in the least.

I think we both agree on the purpose of the game here, and that is that it should be fun. Where we disagree seems to be whether this update has increased the opportunity for fun, or decreased it. I only see more tedium ahead in order to reach the same goals as before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

My point is, this pre-defined farming income, which was although coded by Anet, really created by the community, is the only thing taking a hit by this update. Everything else, including how the income is farmed (AI downgrade), other means of income (Hard Mode), and even access to otherwise semi-locked income (FoW/UW & Elite Areas scrolls), got a big boost - which is why I said this update was the answer to every farmer's wish, but only if the end goal of the farmer was the reward, as reetkever claims.

The problem here is that you are lumping all farmers into one category. The fact is that there are two, the hardcore "expert" farmers, and the casual farmers who only farm occasionally to supplement their normal gameplay. All these new things are wonderful for the former, but how does the addition of an elite system (Hard Mode) and the scaling of loot for lower end items but not those rare objects in elite areas (ecots, etc) help the casual farmer? Isn't the casual farmer more of the average player who Anet claims to want to help? And the "pre-defined farming income" is not solely created by the community, rather it has been kept in a relative range by the presence of fixed-price items, which were coded by Anet and have a great influence on the economy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tda

Then what's the deal with obsidian armour, and titles such as drunkard or treasure hunter..? As it stands with the past "inflation" these required a lot of farming to afford (unless you played for an insane amount of time in a group), and now they will be even harder to get..?

QFT Anet has palced a large number of fixed cost gold sinks in the game, but then decides to make it harder to obtain the gold to purchase said sinks. If they really want to encourage the trade of gold between players instead of it going to merchants and being removed from circulation, why all the high end, high priced sinks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Why does 15k armor costs 15k, and not 1.5k? What kind of "average joe" is amassing 100+ plat for armor anyway?

To answer that, let me quote again from Gaile Gray:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

[*]All players were seeing high prices for the most desirable items; they noted a push to unattainable of items they wanted to get.
[*]The only players able to attain the coolest items fell into a certain player type, the farmer.

Apparently, according to Anet's representative, every "average joe" should be able to afford the 15k armor and other high end items, they claim that that was the point of the update. Whether or not it accomplished this is what is up for debate. I seem to note a constant disparity between what Anet states it's intentions are and what occurs in reality, and that is why I get upset with Anet's actions. If the difference is caused by incompetence, they should just leave the game alone. If it is caused by design, then they are intentionally deceiving the community by claiming one intent when they have alterior motives. (note I have not accused any individual of anything, but have postulated the possibilites as I see them, don't take it as flame, it's merely speculation on my part. I wish I didnt' have to clarify, but people seem overeager as of late to take offense)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Maybe you don't know, but me and Anet are betting that more rares = chaper rares = these guys will be making less money after everyone and their pet is flooded with them. The one potential problem is that chests may become near worthless if average rare value drops below lockpicks. (Or only worthwhile for those with high treasure hunter)

I'll agree that an increase in the amount of "rare" items in game should eventually lower their cost. The problem is that there will also be a decrease in the amount of currency in circulation, which will in turn increase the relative cost of fixed-price items, pushing those items farther out of reach. Personally, this is the bigger issue to me, I could care less about having a weapon with a rare skin, I don't really like most of the rare skins. What I do like is nice looking armors, and with the cost of all armors being fixed at a set value, they all become relatively more expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Other than that, I imagine it would probably be extra work for them to code normal monsters to drop two or more items in parties, as opposed to their current one max. AFAIK hard mode simply increases the quality of dropped weapons, not the frequency of any kind of drop. I suppose they could just make the gold piles bigger, but they are probably trying to get away from items being worth over 100k.

I don't think it would be much extra work to change that part of the coding. As it stands, bosses often drop more than one item, it shouldn't be difficult to spread this functionality to other enemies. I don't know if this is the best solution, but it is certainly a thought that has some merit and ought to be given consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cce

I just don't see these changes as "punishment". ArenaNet is trying to fix an economy which is extremely unfavorable to casual users. Last month I even considered *buying* gold so that I could outfit my heros. Casual players don't necessary have to "have" expensive armour, but they should be able to outfit their heros with minor runes, a max weapon, and such things like this. Currently this is quite difficult since the value of gold is inflated - due to farming.

The first update was poor, but the change since then, to not scale drops of greens, ectos, etc. helps accomplish this. By not flooding the economy with "worthless" drops that are essentially gold and with lots of gold, it's going to increase the value of gold's buying power. That means, the price of greens (which will still be plentiful due to the drops) and other elite goods should fall and become more available to the casual player who only has a few plat.

I see it as good solid economics. It makes sense.

Once again, the problem with any change to an economy is that there are so many variables that there will always be opposing views on how that change will truly affect the economy. We can agree that the economy needs fixing on behalf of casual players, what remains to be seen is whether or not these changes actually accomplish that goal, or if they work against it. Over the past few days, there have been many posts, some saying that the new system works great, others that it is worse than before. I'm afraid that a few days is not enough time to see the effects of a change this big on a system this complex. Rather, it will take weeks if not months to see the total effect on the game's economy, and who knows, by that time they may change something else. Personally, I have my opinion on how this will affect the game's economy. I see this being beneficial only to the "expert" farmers, as those who farm in Hard Mode, or for high end items like greens, or in elite areas such as UW and FoW, will see little decrease in their gains. The group I see being hurt the most are the casual players, who either farm occasionally to support their gameplay, or who rely on drops during missions and quests as they play the campaigns and strive to improve their characters. It is the casual gamer who will see the greatest impact on what they can earn and the value of what they do earn. Am I right? That remains to be seen, we can debate about it all we want but only time will tell. Like I said, I have my opinions and ideas, but I will reserve ultimate judgement until I see the true results.

GenobeeX · Apr 22, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I enjoy hard mode and the drops. But if find that easy mode has the problems now. Me and several friend find that while hard mode has increased drops normal mode has suffered with decreasing rates for ectos and several other items..i think this is rather unfair for people whod rather solo farm uw or fow on regualar mode. Or mabey me and my friends are mearly having bad luck?

Pkest · Apr 22, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenobeeX

I enjoy hard mode and the drops. But if find that easy mode has the problems now. Me and several friend find that while hard mode has increased drops normal mode has suffered with decreasing rates for ectos and several other items..i think this is rather unfair for people whod rather solo farm uw or fow on regualar mode. Or mabey me and my friends are mearly having bad luck?

My drops in normal rot with full hero/henchie team are about 1 half of what they used to be. This seems limited to rot for me.

FoxBat · Apr 22, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And to those who say gold farming is all great and good now. I see the average merch price of golds is around 5-6 times a max white. So if you were to get a gold drop 1 out of 6 monsters instead of a white drop 6 out of 6 monsters, is there a change? No. [edit] remember, the gold drop rate is only altered in Hard Mode, not some place that is forgiving to the casual, NOT spend 10 hours a day playing gaming crowd.

Golds in HM aren't anywhere near 1/6th the drop rate of pre-nerf whites. You'd know that if you tried it yourself. They are only worth farming if you sell them to players.

Quote:

You people can claim we're all a bunch of whiners as much as you want, but when ectos and other rare items continue to rise in price, while the supply of gold drops off, resulting in a double hit to the economy, you can remember this thread.

Mind explaining how people can charge higher prices when no-one has the gold to pay for them?

Enchanted Warrior · Apr 22, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

The gold is fake, so why sweat it

Pkest · Apr 22, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Mind explaining how people can charge higher prices when no-one has the gold to pay for them?

Hardcore farmers did and will continue to have plenty of gold to buy whatever they want. Anet assured this when they 'split the herd' by excluding ectos and doa gems from scaling. So anet's 'chosen' folks will always have plenty of gold to pay exorbitant prices for niche items.

The rest of us? Well not so much cuz we don't meet anet's idea of worthy apparently...because we were all somehow ruining the economy and need to be punished.

explodemyheart · Apr 22, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Mind explaining how people can charge higher prices when no-one has the gold to pay for them?

No one? Are you sure? Or are you just overgeneralizing for the sake of your argument?

You do realize that if nobody was willing to pay for the items at the price requested, the prices would drop, right? Obviously there are people that can and people that do. As long as there are people willing to pay ridiculous prices, sellers will continue to ask for them.

If items are in short supply and someone wants that item and has the money to pay for that item, they will pay for it at the price asked. If nobody will pay for it at the price asked, the seller will be forced to gradually drop the price until someone bites.

That problem is still going to exist with this update. There are going to be the people who have the money that are willing to spend it, there are going to be the people who have the money but are unwilling to spend it and there are still going to be the people who don't have the money. As long as the people who have the money are willing to spend it, prices for low supply high demand items will still be ridiculously high priced.

Kaleban · Apr 22, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Golds in HM aren't anywhere near 1/6th the drop rate of pre-nerf whites. You'd know that if you tried it yourself. They are only worth farming if you sell them to players.

Mind explaining how people can charge higher prices when no-one has the gold to pay for them?

Thank you for proving my points yet again.

So no matter what you do, you will be unable to accumulate as much wealth as pre-nerf, solo or group. Yay fun.

Secondly, as blackbird71 explained so eloquently, is that if you decrease supply of gold such that its drop rate increases its value 8 times, than that 15k armor you could previously get is now WORTH 8 times more.

Nothing stops a player from setting their prices. The actual price of an item may drop, say a sword from 50k to 35k because gold is scarcer, BUT due to the relative value of gold going up, its actually increased in price!

But if you want to believe that this change will make crystalline swords attainable to the general public, fine. You can believe that. But unless ANet ALSO reduces the value of fixed price items like armor (and MAKES insignias fixed already) and heck even id/salvage kits and especially skills, the average player will quickly see his or her gold vanish. An 8 fold drop in gold drops means cap sigs cost a relative 8k gold now, compared to the old economy. A bit expensive don't you think?

rohlfinator · Apr 22, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

Do not take my post out of context. I was not suggesting that I can't do what I find fun now, it was simply in response to arcanemacabre suggesting that hard mode is more fun than solo farming so why should anybody complain.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post. My comment was an attempt to defend arcanemacabre's quote, which I believe was suggesting that because hard mode is profitable, players have little reason to play in ways that they don't enjoy. Either way is profitable enough to cover expenses, so you're free to choose whichever one you like best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

huh, interesting logic there.

Do 8x work, get 1x reward. GG Lenin.

I think I already explained my logic before, but if not, I'll restate it:

1. This is a game, not real life. In real life, money is paid by employers in exchange for work or productivity. In a game, there is no work or productivity, so money is used to aid a player's progression through the game and give them optimal enjoyment. Whether this is directly related to killing monsters is irrelevant. In Guild Wars, money is used to provide players with interesting choices on how to spend it.

2. This is a virtual world, not a real economy. Money can be indiscriminately created and destroyed based on arbitrary rules. Real economic principles don't directly apply in the case of interaction with money-creating NPCs.

3. If playing the game is work to you, perhaps you need to take a break from it or find a different hobby.

And just as a friendly tip, I think ANet and Gaile (as well as the rest of the forum members) would be a lot more receptive to your comments if you left out the name-calling.

blackbird71 · Apr 22, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

See, I'd personally be fine with that, too. As long as people are not penalized for grouping, or *gasp* rewarded for grouping over soloing. If that means to up droprate for both soloers and full parties, so be it.

The only reason I could see for them to not do this is perhaps some vision of the economy around fixed priced items, like 15k armor, ID kits, etc. There may be some formula Anet works with that determines the right amount of cash flow for these items, while the player-driven economy can adjust itself accordingly.

On this I think we can agree 100%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Maybe it's you who aren't getting it. If you don't like farming, don't do it. It really is that simple. Anet upped the rewards in just about every other playstyle preferred by players so that no one has to farm for anything, period. So now you farm only if you want to, rather than feel forced to fall back on it to make some quick cash. Like you said, besides xp and drops, you also have camraderie, chatting and interaction (although all three mean about the same thing). It's simply more fun, why would you not want to make money that way above farming?

Now you've lost me. I think I must have missed something. Anet upped the rewards in every other playstyle "preferred" by players? When did this happen? Did I not see something on the update notes? All I saw that was increased was the drop rates in the new "Hard Mode." The drops were increased in the new, "elite" portion of the game. And as far as I can tell, playing Hard Mode is just another way of farming. You repeat the same areas and missions that you've already done, and why? For better loot. It would be different if there were new quests for HM or something like that, but as it stands, Hard Mode is just another farm/grind. The problem is that it's farming for the high end players. I haven't seen anything noting an increase in the items or areas frequented by the average, casual player. The casual player whom Anet claims to love and support. Help me out here, I'm not seeing how this connects at all.

Eldin · Apr 22, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

This controversy has been raging on for sometime now, and I would rather not waste time adding to this thread ANet will likely ignore.

I earned by 15k armor after about 5 days of farming Ettins, that was BEFORE Ettins were nerfed, and BEFORE loot scaling.

This doesn't help at all. I make more money doing a mission in Hard Mode, something that is not as desirable as classic farming.

Look. How about we just stage a rebellion meeting somewhere in-game?

Pkest · Apr 22, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

Look. How about we just stage a rebellion meeting somewhere in-game?

Doesn't sound like it would do much good. Frankly I'm starting to appreciate the idea of a monthly fee since then you can 'vote with your wallet' more directly. this change won't have any real effect on anet's bottom line until GWen rolls around and then they won't necessarily see it for what it is.

Kaleban · Apr 22, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post. My comment was an attempt to defend arcanemacabre's quote, which I believe was suggesting that because hard mode is profitable, players have little reason to play in ways that they don't enjoy. Either way is profitable enough to cover expenses, so you're free to choose whichever one you like best.

The advent of Hard Mode did not remove Normal Mode from the game. So many of you seem to be missing that fact in your arguments. Its not solo farm vs. hard mode, its farming vs. playing in normal mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

I think I already explained my logic before, but if not, I'll restate it:

1. This is a game, not real life. In real life, money is paid by employers in exchange for work or productivity. In a game, there is no work or productivity, so money is used to aid a player's progression through the game and give them optimal enjoyment. Whether this is directly related to killing monsters is irrelevant. In Guild Wars, money is used to provide players with interesting choices on how to spend it.

2. This is a virtual world, not a real economy. Money can be indiscriminately created and destroyed based on arbitrary rules. Real economic principles don't directly apply in the case of interaction with money-creating NPCs.

3. If playing the game is work to you, perhaps you need to take a break from it or find a different hobby.

And just as a friendly tip, I think ANet and Gaile (as well as the rest of the forum members) would be a lot more receptive to your comments if you left out the name-calling.

1. Right and wrong. GW is not real life, but people put time into it, and expect something out of it. Whether that's enjoyment from PUGing, capping elite skills, hero/henching masters' missions or even FARMING, the concept is a player expends time and effort, and gets something in return. If Player A puts in X amount of effort, and Player B puts in 4x amount of effort, why should Player B receive the same rewards as Player A? That's not fair based on effort expended.

2. Right and wrong again. Right regarding this not being a real economy, wrong about money being indiscriminately created by NPCs. The only way money is introduced into the economy is by the number of man-hours expended by the players as a ratio to loot and sales of loot. I have yet to see the "Mint NPC" or the Money Tree.

3. Playing the game MY way is not work, I enjoy the challenge in farming where and when I choose. Sorry that my fun is not your fun, but we're two different people.

The Lenin comment was in reference to your apparent idea that its okay to reward people equally regardless of the amount of time and effort. Gaile and ANet don't seem receptive to ANY player's comments who don't agree with them and fawn over them. I could be wrong, but meh, its only a game. Too bad its not as fun as it was before.

You know, just the length of these threads and the arguments presented should be a clue to even the most thick that there IS something wrong with the update, telling people to just roll over and accept it kind of defeats the entire point of having a discussion forum.

Necrokitty · Apr 22, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I was severely ticked off by this change when I first read the update news. I told my girlfriend "There's no point in ever playing that game again." Because I'm not a great player. I've never beaten the game with any of my characters (though I have a ranger sitting 1 mission away from the end), haven't made any ventures into uber areas. I like getting stuff, collecting bows and trinkets and my ultimate goal is to have a complete stack of every crafting material there is. I might have made it if I hadn't gotten antsy and sold them all off to play Nine Rings a while ago...

I farm to get stuff I want. It's tedious and frustrating at times. I sell everything to merchants because I hate sitting in town trying to read the scrolling spam of the trade community. On average, I make 3 plat/half hour. Most of it from white items. It's sufficient income for my purchases, usually.

After thinking about it a couple days, I'm still annoyed. Gold (money) and white and blue and purple drops are a fraction of what they used to be. I've got no chance of having even the small amount of cash I used to pull in. I see people complaining about not being able to afford their 15K armors. What about us not-so-1337 players who just need the necessities?

Explain it to me. Does this mean prices for armor materials and capture signets and otther things will go down? Will there ever be hope for players, old and new, to make their way through the game without having to spend 8 times as much time trying to earn what they need?

I just recently talked my sister into buying Factions to try. I kind of regret that, now. I've personally spent around $300 on Guild Wars - all campaigns, extra character slots, instore upgrades, promo items - for myself and my girlfriend. I really regret that, now. I can't say if I'll be giving Anet any more of my money. I want to say never again, no more GW, no GWEN, no GW2, nothing, but I don't know.

I don't know if I want to play anymore. It's really depressing. So tell me, how are the not-so-great players supposed to be better off, now? This sucks.

Jibrail · Apr 22, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

... You know, just the length of these threads and the arguments presented should be a clue to even the most thick that there IS something wrong with the update, telling people to just roll over and accept it kind of defeats the entire point of having a discussion forum ....

i agree here with you. and like i posted in another forum:

Quote:

... i don't understand why there are still people in this forum who continue to justify everything anet has done to this game which has caused all this negativity. you see, irregardless of whatever in-game studies you show to prove that anet has done a wonderful job, people bought this game with their hearts and not their minds and they have since decided that this is no longer fun, even though bunnies may begin falling from the sky. and once people think that the game is no longer fun, then it is a dead game to them. no amount of e-scientific justification or e-economics is going to change their perception of that.

this is why i say anet blew it. and why this game is no longer fun. its subjective, a matter of perception, a matter of faith. and we no longer have faith in anet to deliver entertainment.

Dasanko · Apr 22, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Personally, I believe that collector-related drops should be exempt as well. Plenty of people try to reduce party size just to increase the chances of getting X certain collector items, required by Y collector in order to get some other Z item... Right as things are, collectors are further away of casual player's reach.